Discussion:
Why are expats worried - a new insight
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Byker
2017-03-13 17:11:04 UTC
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Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany

March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness

The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?

"So, when are you becoming German?" It's one of those questions that always
seems to crop up when I'm chatting to British friends here in Berlin these
days. Most are either applying for German citizenship or counting the days
until they've spent enough time here to be eligible.

That's because no-one knows what will happen to them once Britain leaves the
EU. These are not the bronzed "expats" of the tabloid imagination — living
it up in the sun, glass of gin in one hand, golf club in the other. They are
young freelancers worried that if they need visas their work will dry up. Or
pensioners living in rented flats, surviving on fixed incomes tied to a
shrinking pound.

Esme was the most organised of any of us. She made her first appointment
with the German authorities the week before the referendum. She took the
citizenship test, submitted all the documents, and a few weeks ago became
German in a ceremony in her local town hall, in the Berlin district of
Neukoelln.

What surprised her was how emotional she felt about it. About 50 people, of
22 different nationalities were being granted German citizenship: Syrians,
Americans, Iraqis, Turks, Italians, French — even a few other Brits.

The local mayor gave a speech welcoming everyone, and reflected on the
meaning of Heimat, or homeland. And as she quoted from the German
constitution, and talked about how all people were equal, regardless of
gender, origin or ethnicity, Esme felt tears in her eyes.

A cellist and a pianist played the 22 different national anthems of those
present — by then, Esme was almost sobbing. And finally a singer came in to
give a moving rendition of the European anthem, Beethoven's Ode to Joy — by
which time Esme was in pieces.

Not bad for an out-and-out liberal, who's usually pretty skeptical about
flag-waving.

"It was the thought of the journeys that everyone had taken to get here,"
Esme explained to me afterwards. "The wars that people had escaped from. And
the efforts they had made to start a new life in Germany." Some people had
learned, by heart, the declaration of allegiance to the German constitution,
especially for the ceremony. Esme said it put her own worries into
perspective.

For Esme, and I suspect for a lot of the Brits who are now becoming German,
what started out as a practical decision about visas and passports, is
unexpectedly raising deeper questions about identity. Can you really be both
German and British? And what does it mean to be German anyway?

Not so very long ago, saying to other Brits that you're becoming German
would almost inevitably lead to some tired gag about Nazis or towels on sun
loungers. And although some British headlines might still use those
cliches — and you can expect a few more if Brexit talks get nasty — today,
modern Germany is seen more often as a bastion of tolerant values:
international, democratic and open to immigrants.

Of course, there are people outside and inside Germany who criticize Angela
Merkel's decision to allow so many foreigners in. But for those new
British-Germans, themselves migrants, a country that welcomes foreigners is
attractive.

In fact, being a German with a hyphen is a relatively new concept here.
Traditionally German identity was an ethnic idea, related to bloodline
rather than where you were born. So it used to feel as if Britain and
America were rather better at accepting that people had layered identities —
enabling you to be originally from one country, but a citizen of another.

But over the past few decades Germany has been going through a difficult,
and largely successful, process of redefining what it means to be German.
Angela Merkel now refers to Germany as "a country of immigration" — an
unimaginable statement for a center-right chancellor until very recently.
And today 20 percent of Germans are described as having a migrant
background.

Brexit-Britain and Trump's US, meanwhile, seem to be heading in the opposite
direction. At least, that's what it looks like from here.

As for me, my own citizenship status is a bureaucratic muddle. It's no doubt
my own fault for moving around too much, but growing up in a globalizing
world I had thought passports, borders and notions of citizenship were
losing their importance.

Today though, as I scrabble together previously unheard of documents to
avoid suddenly becoming an illegal alien, I can see I was wrong.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-03-02/brexit-looms-more-100000-brits-living-germany
James Harris
2017-03-13 19:00:12 UTC
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Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being settled
in the courts ... again.

The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
--
James Harris
Ian Jackson
2017-03-13 19:41:15 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
--
Ian
Joe
2017-03-13 20:34:52 UTC
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Raw Message
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:41:15 +0000
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some
for over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have
children - are not, before the Brexit negotiations start,
unequivocally being granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of
those who have decided to hedge their bets by applying for permanent
leave to stay here have being refused. There are far too refusals for
them just to have been an administrative errors. It speaks volumes
about the morals of some of the members of our present Government,
and makes me ashamed to be British. It does not bode well for the
future.
Why are you conflating membership of the EU with where people can live?

I can (just) remember the wedding of my last uncle to marry, more than
fifty years ago. He married an Italian woman. One of my best friends at
primary school had an Italian mother. No EU then, either. My father was
an immigrant from a country now in the EU, which didn't exist when he
arrived.

You are surely not a FUD merchant, are you? And go easy on the
'absolutely disgraceful' stuff, you'll be mistaken for an avatar of
Mark.
--
Joe
Ian Jackson
2017-03-13 21:11:29 UTC
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Post by Joe
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:41:15 +0000
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some
for over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have
children - are not, before the Brexit negotiations start,
unequivocally being granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of
those who have decided to hedge their bets by applying for permanent
leave to stay here have being refused. There are far too refusals for
them just to have been an administrative errors. It speaks volumes
about the morals of some of the members of our present Government,
and makes me ashamed to be British. It does not bode well for the
future.
Why are you conflating membership of the EU with where people can live?
I can (just) remember the wedding of my last uncle to marry, more than
fifty years ago. He married an Italian woman. One of my best friends at
primary school had an Italian mother. No EU then, either. My father was
an immigrant from a country now in the EU, which didn't exist when he
arrived.
You are surely not a FUD merchant, are you? And go easy on the
'absolutely disgraceful' stuff, you'll be mistaken for an avatar of
Mark.
Before the EU, moving between EU countries was much less common.
Immigrants had no rights to live and work in other countries, but
provided the various formalities were fulfilled, few obstacles were
placed in peoples' way.

With the coming of the EU, every citizen acquired the more-or-less
unfettered right to move to and work in any EU country. Formalities
became minimal and, essentially, no one could be refused from doing so.
It is now this right which is in danger of being retrospectively revoked
by an apparently dishonourable and heartless UK government. It certainly
is not FUD. EU citizens in the UK have a genuine fear of it becoming
difficult to live in what is rapidly becoming an increasingly
unwelcoming country.
--
Ian
tim...
2017-03-14 09:55:48 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Joe
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:41:15 +0000
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some
for over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have
children - are not, before the Brexit negotiations start,
unequivocally being granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of
those who have decided to hedge their bets by applying for permanent
leave to stay here have being refused. There are far too refusals for
them just to have been an administrative errors. It speaks volumes
about the morals of some of the members of our present Government,
and makes me ashamed to be British. It does not bode well for the
future.
Why are you conflating membership of the EU with where people can live?
I can (just) remember the wedding of my last uncle to marry, more than
fifty years ago. He married an Italian woman. One of my best friends at
primary school had an Italian mother. No EU then, either. My father was
an immigrant from a country now in the EU, which didn't exist when he
arrived.
You are surely not a FUD merchant, are you? And go easy on the
'absolutely disgraceful' stuff, you'll be mistaken for an avatar of
Mark.
Before the EU, moving between EU countries was much less common.
Immigrants had no rights to live and work in other countries, but provided
the various formalities were fulfilled, few obstacles were placed in
peoples' way.
The UK had a virtual open door until 1962

we had "full" employment and encouraged anybody who was reasonably desirable
to come here, especially Commonwealth citizens.

we abandoned that policy in the 62 and it became much harder for anybody to
come here

tim
Fredxxx
2017-03-13 21:50:29 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this
right in the rest of the EU.

It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense
of UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
Ian Jackson
2017-03-13 22:05:40 UTC
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Raw Message
In message <oa741q$3vf$***@dont-email.me>, Fredxxx <***@nospam.com>
writes
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this
right in the rest of the EU.
It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense
of UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK
citizens.
--
Ian
Fredxxx
2017-03-13 22:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this
right in the rest of the EU.
It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense
of UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
Which means we don't need to officially give any EU national the right
to stay in the UK, because "we haven't officially announced to the EU
that we're going to leave".
JNugent
2017-03-14 02:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this
right in the rest of the EU.
It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense
of UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
Which means we don't need to officially give any EU national the right
to stay in the UK, because "we haven't officially announced to the EU
that we're going to leave".
:-)

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Vidcapper
2017-03-14 07:36:02 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
Which means we don't need to officially give any EU national the right
to stay in the UK, because "we haven't officially announced to the EU
that we're going to leave".
:-)
Ian J obviously hasn't thought things through - if we guarantee the
rights of EU citizens *before* negotiations begin, then the EU could
potentially hold the rights of UK citizens abroad 'hostage' to
strengthen their own negotiating position.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
James Harris
2017-03-14 08:21:28 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
Which means we don't need to officially give any EU national the right
to stay in the UK, because "we haven't officially announced to the EU
that we're going to leave".
:-)
Ian J obviously hasn't thought things through - if we guarantee the
rights of EU citizens *before* negotiations begin, then the EU could
potentially hold the rights of UK citizens abroad 'hostage' to
strengthen their own negotiating position.
Indeed! It is nothing like as simple as "You can stay". There is a whole
mass of detailed issues to resolve and decide - pensions, healthcare,
legal status, rights for family members still in the home country, and
more.

The British cannot simply come up with a package of measures and expect
all those on the EU side to agree to what the UK came up with. They
might not. They probably wouldn't. The 28, naturally, all want to
discuss it and come to an agreement. And, unfortunately, it will
probably be a drawn-out tortuous discussion in its own right. Each
country will fight its own corner over minutiae.

I have no problem with these things having to be negotiated. The
"bargaining chips" analogy is emotive and inapt; negotiations are
needed. But I do object to the EU side refusing to put the matter to
rest before now. They know we are set to leave. All such a discussion
would cost them is time. They wouldn't lose face. They wouldn't lose
prestige. They couldn't use it to block Brexit. They just need to get
together and spend the time necessary to get the issues resolved.
--
James Harris
abelard
2017-03-14 10:47:01 UTC
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Raw Message
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:21:28 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
I have no problem with these things having to be negotiated. The
"bargaining chips" analogy is emotive and inapt; negotiations are
needed. But I do object to the EU side refusing to put the matter to
rest before now. They know we are set to leave.
i believe the remoaners and the eussr will drag their heels every
step of the way like a fractious child on the way to bed...
Post by James Harris
All such a discussion
would cost them is time. They wouldn't lose face. They wouldn't lose
prestige. They couldn't use it to block Brexit. They just need to get
together and spend the time necessary to get the issues resolved.
why do you imagine they want the issues resolved?

resolved means their girl rich friend will leave and shack up
with someone else
--
www.abelard.org
James Harris
2017-03-13 23:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this
right in the rest of the EU.
It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense
of UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
That's unsound. They could discuss this if they wanted to. Most of them
were willing. But a few said No. And in the EU everyone has to play the
same tune. Stepping out of line is not allowed - even if it would be
good for their citizens.

In the EU the rules come first - even when those rules are arbitrary and
not required by treaty. Citizens come second. They are not as important.
--
James Harris
Ian Jackson
2017-03-13 23:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Harris
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this
right in the rest of the EU.
It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense
of UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
That's unsound. They could discuss this if they wanted to. Most of them
were willing. But a few said No. And in the EU everyone has to play the
same tune. Stepping out of line is not allowed - even if it would be
good for their citizens.
In the EU the rules come first - even when those rules are arbitrary
and not required by treaty. Citizens come second. They are not as
important.
Individual EU countries can't discuss this with the UK. You can't have
France agreeing to treat UK ex-pats one way, and Germany treating them
another way. Don't forget that the 'U' in EU stands for 'union'. You may
not like it, but it does have its advantages.
--
Ian
James Harris
2017-03-14 08:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this
right in the rest of the EU.
It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense
of UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
That's unsound. They could discuss this if they wanted to. Most of
them were willing. But a few said No. And in the EU everyone has to
play the same tune. Stepping out of line is not allowed - even if it
would be good for their citizens.
In the EU the rules come first - even when those rules are arbitrary
and not required by treaty. Citizens come second. They are not as
important.
Individual EU countries can't discuss this with the UK. You can't have
France agreeing to treat UK ex-pats one way, and Germany treating them
another way. Don't forget that the 'U' in EU stands for 'union'. You may
not like it, but it does have its advantages.
Well, that's highly debatable. But even if true there's no reason all 28
could not get together and sort this out.
--
James Harris
tim...
2017-03-14 10:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Fredxxx
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this
right in the rest of the EU.
It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense
of UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
That's unsound. They could discuss this if they wanted to. Most of them
were willing. But a few said No. And in the EU everyone has to play the
same tune. Stepping out of line is not allowed - even if it would be good
for their citizens.
In the EU the rules come first - even when those rules are arbitrary and
not required by treaty. Citizens come second. They are not as important.
Individual EU countries can't discuss this with the UK. You can't have
France agreeing to treat UK ex-pats one way, and Germany treating them
another way. Don't forget that the 'U' in EU stands for 'union'. You may
not like it, but it does have its advantages.
Actually you can

The rules surrounding residency rights for non EU citizens (which Brits will
be once we leave) are not an EU competence.

It is something which is in the domain of the individual country's
governments

Each county can, and do, have their own rules on this.

tim
Post by Ian Jackson
--
Ian
Vidcapper
2017-03-14 07:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to
the EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going
to leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
And *you* don't understand that that's why we are not offering any
guarantees pre-negotiation either!
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
tim...
2017-03-14 10:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
writes
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Its even more disgraceful that UK nationals haven't been given this right
in the rest of the EU.
It says something about you wanting a unilateral pledge at the expense of
UK nationals abroad. Are you MM and hate the British?
You still can't understand that as we haven't officially announced to the
EU that we're going to leave, officially they don't know we're going to
leave - so they have no reason to grant anything to ex-pat UK citizens.
so we've no reason to grant anything to them then, is there?

tim
Post by Ian Jackson
--
Ian
abelard
2017-03-13 22:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:41:15 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
stop being such a big girl's blouse...

they won't be forced out...
--
www.abelard.org
Ian Jackson
2017-03-13 22:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:41:15 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
stop being such a big girl's blouse...
they won't be forced out...
Well, maybe not at gunpoint.

However, if what some of the radio phoners-in is to be believed, many
have found that a definite change in the attitude of some people towards
them (including some of their friends and work colleagues). The fact
that quite a lot of applications for permanent residence are being
rejected doesn't help. Their obvious conclusion is that the UK doesn't
really want them, and there's probably not much of a long-term future
for them here.
--
Ian
abelard
2017-03-13 23:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:52:24 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by abelard
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:41:15 +0000, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by James Harris
Post by Byker
Why are expats worried about their rights? I just heard a bit of a select
committee hearing which shed a fascinating light on it.
Speaking of expats: "So, when are you becoming German?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brexit looms for more than 100,000 Brits living in Germany
March 02, 2017 · 1:15 PM EST
By Damien McGuinness
The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the
country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about
what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in
Germany feeling?
Good news for Brits abroad. The Commons has just voted against both
Lords' amendments, and for some very sensible reasons, not least that
they were poorly thought out and could have led to matters being
settled in the courts ... again.
The Brexit Bill now goes back to the Lords for discussion later this
evening.
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
stop being such a big girl's blouse...
they won't be forced out...
Well, maybe not at gunpoint.
However, if what some of the radio phoners-in is to be believed, many
have found that a definite change in the attitude of some people towards
them (including some of their friends and work colleagues). The fact
that quite a lot of applications for permanent residence are being
rejected doesn't help. Their obvious conclusion is that the UK doesn't
really want them, and there's probably not much of a long-term future
for them here.
no, the obvious conclusion is that the government is 'keeping its
powder dry'
--
www.abelard.org
JNugent
2017-03-14 02:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[ ... ]
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by abelard
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
stop being such a big girl's blouse...
they won't be forced out...
Well, maybe not at gunpoint.
However, if what some of the radio phoners-in is to be believed, many
have found that a definite change in the attitude of some people towards
them (including some of their friends and work colleagues).
That's probably correct. After all, a certain hostility to the EU has
developed over the past ten years or so.

Why didn't the EU read the writing on the wall a year ago and actually
make a few worthwhile sacrificial concessions when Cameron was
attempting to "re-negotiate" the UK's deal? If they'd just recognised
that Britain had a problem, they might have done enough to swing the
referendum outcome a couple of points. But no... they know best, eh?

The EU hierarchy has repeatedly treated this country with contempt and
now expresses surprise and even dismay. You could not make it up.
Post by Ian Jackson
The fact
that quite a lot of applications for permanent residence are being
rejected doesn't help.
Doesn't help whom or what?



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Handsome Jack
2017-03-14 08:53:32 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
However, if what some of the radio phoners-in is to be believed, many
have found that a definite change in the attitude of some people
towards them (including some of their friends and work colleagues).
Maybe it depends on their own attitudes. If they go around like MM,
calling their pro-Brexit colleagues uneducated racist fuckwits, then
those colleagues' attitudes to them might well change.
Post by Ian Jackson
The fact that quite a lot of applications for permanent residence are
being rejected doesn't help.
Are they though? We know of one, loudly trumpeted by the Guardian, and
obviously a clerical error.
Post by Ian Jackson
Their obvious conclusion is that the UK doesn't really want them, and
there's probably not much of a long-term future for them here.
--
Jack
Ian Jackson
2017-03-14 09:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
However, if what some of the radio phoners-in is to be believed, many
have found that a definite change in the attitude of some people
towards them (including some of their friends and work colleagues).
Maybe it depends on their own attitudes. If they go around like MM,
calling their pro-Brexit colleagues uneducated racist fuckwits, then
those colleagues' attitudes to them might well change.
Post by Ian Jackson
The fact that quite a lot of applications for permanent residence are
being rejected doesn't help.
Are they though? We know of one, loudly trumpeted by the Guardian, and
obviously a clerical error.
No. Near the end of yesterday's Iain Dale LBC phone-in, one caller said
that she had applied for permanent residency for herself and family. If
I understood correctly, she had been accepted, but her two children
(early teens) had been rejected on the grounds that they had not
provided evidence of any means of supporting themselves. I think she had
lived here for around 25 years.

Iain Dale said that reports of refusals seemed to be far too common, and
that he was going to look into why this was.
[Somewhere, I heard that about one third of such applications were being
refused.]
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Their obvious conclusion is that the UK doesn't really want them, and
there's probably not much of a long-term future for them here.
And this is what the following caller said (a Latvian, 15 years in the
UK).
--
Ian
JNugent
2017-03-14 02:18:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
Why is it not equally disgraceful that the EU has not immediately
offered to grant the same thing to the much smaller number of UK
citizens living on the continent?

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Ian Jackson
2017-03-14 08:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JNugent
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
Why is it not equally disgraceful that the EU has not immediately
offered to grant the same thing to the much smaller number of UK
citizens living on the continent?
It's very obvious that Brexiteers seem are totally incapable of
understanding the feelings and potential problems now being faced by EU
citizens living in the UK. The UK government - under whose authority and
protection they have been living possibly for two or three decades - is,
by its continuing stubborn refusal to guarantee that their pre-Brexit
status and rights will still be respected after we leave the EU, showing
utter contempt for their human rights. Are these the moral standards by
which we want to be governed?
Post by JNugent
---
This Usenet newsgroup post has not been checked by AVG - but trust me,
it doesn't have any nasty viruses in it (well, it probably doesn't).
--
Ian
Handsome Jack
2017-03-14 08:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
Why is it not equally disgraceful that the EU has not immediately
offered to grant the same thing to the much smaller number of UK
citizens living on the continent?
It's very obvious that Brexiteers seem are totally incapable of
understanding the feelings and potential problems now being faced by EU
citizens living in the UK. The UK government - under whose authority
and protection they have been living possibly for two or three decades
- is, by its continuing stubborn refusal to guarantee that their
pre-Brexit status and rights will still be respected after we leave the
EU, showing utter contempt for their human rights. Are these the moral
standards by which we want to be governed?
Before we answer your question, could you just answer the one you were
asked above?
--
Jack
Ian Jackson
2017-03-14 09:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
Why is it not equally disgraceful that the EU has not immediately
offered to grant the same thing to the much smaller number of UK
citizens living on the continent?
It's very obvious that Brexiteers seem are totally incapable of
understanding the feelings and potential problems now being faced by
EU citizens living in the UK. The UK government - under whose
authority and protection they have been living possibly for two or
three decades - is, by its continuing stubborn refusal to guarantee
that their pre-Brexit status and rights will still be respected after
we leave the EU, showing utter contempt for their human rights. Are
these the moral standards by which we want to be governed?
Before we answer your question, could you just answer the one you were
asked above?
The EU are not likely to offer UK ex-pats anything until they are told
officially that we are leaving the EU. Even then, we are the ones who
will have to say "But this will not affect any of your citizens already
living in the UK".
--
Ian
Handsome Jack
2017-03-15 08:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
Why is it not equally disgraceful that the EU has not immediately
offered to grant the same thing to the much smaller number of UK
citizens living on the continent?
It's very obvious that Brexiteers seem are totally incapable of
understanding the feelings and potential problems now being faced by
EU citizens living in the UK. The UK government - under whose
authority and protection they have been living possibly for two or
three decades - is, by its continuing stubborn refusal to guarantee
that their pre-Brexit status and rights will still be respected after
we leave the EU, showing utter contempt for their human rights. Are
these the moral standards by which we want to be governed?
Before we answer your question, could you just answer the one you were
asked above?
The EU are not likely to offer UK ex-pats anything until they are told
officially that we are leaving the EU.
But you didn't answer the question about whether that is disgraceful or
not.
Post by Ian Jackson
Even then, we are the ones who will have to say "But this will not
affect any of your citizens already living in the UK".
No we won't. Why will we?
--
Jack
tim...
2017-03-14 10:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
Why is it not equally disgraceful that the EU has not immediately offered
to grant the same thing to the much smaller number of UK citizens living
on the continent?
It's very obvious that Brexiteers seem are totally incapable of
understanding the feelings and potential problems now being faced by EU
citizens living in the UK.
Don't be silly

Most of this concern expressed by these people really is ill-founded

It seems reasonable to ignore it as such
Post by Ian Jackson
The UK government - under whose authority and protection they have been
living possibly for two or three decades
the vast majority have been here 5 years or less
Post by Ian Jackson
- is, by its continuing stubborn refusal to guarantee that their pre-Brexit
status and rights will still be respected after we leave the EU, showing
utter contempt for their human rights.
Really?
what Human right is that?

If this is such a fundamental Human Right, why are you not equally
condemning the other side for abusing it?
Post by Ian Jackson
Are these the moral standards by which we want to be governed?
It's a negotiating position calculated to get the best for "our" citizens

personally, I believe that moral obligation trumps that over any moral
obligation to foreigners

tim
James Harris
2017-03-14 10:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 14/03/2017 10:13, tim... wrote:

...
Post by tim...
It's a negotiating position calculated to get the best for "our" citizens
personally, I believe that moral obligation trumps that over any moral
obligation to foreigners
What do you make of the fact that reps of Brits abroad apparently were
in favour of the UK making a unilateral commitment?
--
James Harris
abelard
2017-03-14 10:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:24:44 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
Post by tim...
It's a negotiating position calculated to get the best for "our" citizens
personally, I believe that moral obligation trumps that over any moral
obligation to foreigners
What do you make of the fact that reps of Brits abroad apparently were
in favour of the UK making a unilateral commitment?
going native? naivete?
--
www.abelard.org
James Harris
2017-03-14 13:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:24:44 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
Post by tim...
It's a negotiating position calculated to get the best for "our" citizens
personally, I believe that moral obligation trumps that over any moral
obligation to foreigners
What do you make of the fact that reps of Brits abroad apparently were
in favour of the UK making a unilateral commitment?
going native? naivete?
They were almost certainly naive, IMO. Even if the specific countries
they lived in could be trusted they could not make such assurances for
all 27.
--
James Harris
tim...
2017-03-14 11:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
...
Post by tim...
It's a negotiating position calculated to get the best for "our" citizens
personally, I believe that moral obligation trumps that over any moral
obligation to foreigners
What do you make of the fact that reps of Brits abroad apparently were in
favour of the UK making a unilateral commitment?
That those rep are unrepresentative idiots

tim
--
James Harris
James Harris
2017-03-14 13:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by James Harris
...
Post by tim...
It's a negotiating position calculated to get the best for "our" citizens
personally, I believe that moral obligation trumps that over any moral
obligation to foreigners
What do you make of the fact that reps of Brits abroad apparently were
in favour of the UK making a unilateral commitment?
That those rep are unrepresentative idiots
I thought that they might have made their comments some time ago and, at
the time, just hoped that a unilateral gesture would lead to an early
pan-Europe resolution.

But on reflection, I suspect that your guess is more accurate. :-)
--
James Harris
Joe
2017-03-14 17:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:09:34 +0000
Post by James Harris
Post by tim...
Post by James Harris
...
Post by tim...
It's a negotiating position calculated to get the best for "our" citizens
personally, I believe that moral obligation trumps that over any
moral obligation to foreigners
What do you make of the fact that reps of Brits abroad apparently
were in favour of the UK making a unilateral commitment?
That those rep are unrepresentative idiots
I thought that they might have made their comments some time ago and,
at the time, just hoped that a unilateral gesture would lead to an
early pan-Europe resolution.
But on reflection, I suspect that your guess is more accurate. :-)
The point might be made that their proposal would cost them nothing if
implemented. Cost-free decisions are easy ones to make, and most useful
in virtue-signalling...
--
Joe
JNugent
2017-03-14 11:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here. Quite a lot of those who have decided to
hedge their bets by applying for permanent leave to stay here have being
refused. There are far too refusals for them just to have been an
administrative errors. It speaks volumes about the morals of some of the
members of our present Government, and makes me ashamed to be British.
It does not bode well for the future.
Why is it not equally disgraceful that the EU has not immediately
offered to grant the same thing to the much smaller number of UK
citizens living on the continent?
It's very obvious that Brexiteers seem are totally incapable of
understanding the feelings and potential problems now being faced by EU
citizens living in the UK. The UK government - under whose authority and
protection they have been living possibly for two or three decades - is,
by its continuing stubborn refusal to guarantee that their pre-Brexit
status and rights will still be respected after we leave the EU, showing
utter contempt for their human rights. Are these the moral standards by
which we want to be governed?
"It's very obvious that Brexiteers seem are totally incapable of
understanding the feelings and potential problems now being faced by EU
citizens living in the UK."

Why is that "obvious"?

It could only be obvious and/or significant in a situation where if the
UK government "understandood" those feelings and potential problems, the
"rights" of those EU citizens would trump everything, on the basis that
foreigners are automatically more important and more deserving then mere
British citizens, wherever they live.




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Vidcapper
2017-03-14 07:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ian Jackson
It's absolutely disgraceful that EU citizens living in the UK - some for
over 30 years, and who have married, settled down, and have children -
are not, before the Brexit negotiations start, unequivocally being
granted the right to stay here.
Why should that be guaranteed *in advance*, when the EU has not offered
similar protection for Brits living in the EU, prior to negotiation?
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
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